On the 27th January 2007, Jimmy Whitfield from Sweden very kindly supplied
icethesite with a translation of a remarkable and revealing Björn Ulvaeus
interview.
Chairman of the Swedish Humanists Association, Christer Sturmark asked Björn a
wide range of questions on the subjects of religion, politics and faith and
Björn responded in some detail about his beliefs and world-view.
Jimmy Whitefield (who doesn't pretend to be able to speak perfect English)
painstakingly translated the article from Swedish to English and submitted it to
this website. I am enormously grateful for his hard work and the fact that he
chose this website to share it with.
Björn in Humanisten
The translation soon attracted a fair bit of attention and even the interviewer
Christer Sturmark asked if he could he could use it. I explained to Christer
that the article's word-for-word accuracy could not be absolutely guaranteed and
that he may want to work with the translation available here and arrange for it
to be honed into a definitive translation for further publication. Perhaps one
day he could even send it back to me and I could re-publish it!
That is exactly what he has done and I am pleased to announce that the new
translation appears below. Out of respect for Jimmy and all his toiling on the
original, I have still used parts of his translation that simply used a
different noun than the new translation and where the meaning isn't at all
distorted by doing so. My thanks go to Christer Sturmark, Marika Granerus and Jimmy
Whitefield for allowing me to re-publish the fresh article.
If you've read it
before, it's well worth another read. In my opinion it stands alone as the best
interview with Björn of recent times. Following the article are a number of
links with more information on Humanist Associations in Sweden and worldwide and
another interview with Björn in which he discusses his religious beliefs.
One of Sweden's most well known cultural figures is a member of 'The Swedish
Humanist Association'. Björn Ulvaeus is synonymous to most Swedes as one of the
four in the super-group ABBA. He has, alongside fellow ABBA member Benny Andersson, written the musicals
CHESS and Kristina
från Duvemåla. He is currently involved with the hit musical "Mamma Mia!", that
has at present been seen by 25 million people around the world.
Chairman of the Swedish Humanist Association, Christer Sturmark, meets him for
an interview about religion, politics and the humanist view of life. He meets a
man who doesn’t believe in any of the gods described in the world religions and
has a great engagement in humanist issues.
Christer:
Björn, you are a member of the Swedish Humanist Association. Tell me
why you have chosen to commit yourself to these issues and why you think they
are important?
Björn:
Because I have noticed how religion is becoming a power in politics and
is also competing with the scientific way of thinking. That worries me. I have
always been a huge friend of “the Enlightenment” and of science.
When I have seen irrational, religious conservative values and hostility against
science influencing society, I searched for an organisation that deals with
these questions. I found that Swedish Humanist Association existed and what they
stood for, and as a result I became a member.
I miss those days when people believed in science and common sense as in the
Fifties and Sixties. Now fundamentalism and contempt for science seems to be
spreading. I believe that religion should be totally separated from the state.
That’s not the way it is today, not even in Sweden. For hundreds of years we
have struggled to achieve a secular society, and now we seem to be going
backwards. I find it quite astonishing that more women don’t stand up to these
questions.
I believe that religious faith schools are highly dubious. I also think that
it's absurd that organisations that have secular aims, for example the Swedish
Humanist Association don’t get the same government grants as similar
organisations, just because they don’t conduct services. Perhaps we should start
holding gatherings where we pay our respect to Voltaire!
Christer:
Why did it turn out like this?
Björn:
Contempt for science could perhaps depend on the fact that, science
hasn’t been able to solve any of our basic problems, for example the
environmental pollution or the problems with HIV and AIDS. This is the worst
disease of our time, and scientists are lost. I believe that many people are
disappointed with science when the answers we need are not delivered.
I also believe that the atomic bomb and other weapons of mass destruction show
that science can be used in evil ways, which also contributes to the disregard.
As far as religious fundamentalism is concerned it might be due to the
globalisation and the fact that many people feel insecure in a world that is
rapidly changing. In crisis of identity people often turn to their religious
origin.
Christer:
Do you consider yourself being an atheist?
Björn:
Well, I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism. I don’t have, and I think
I cannot have, a clear view of god's existence. I do not believe in the god that
is described in the Middle East religions or in any other religions for that
matter. I'm not denying that there is something out there, but I don’t think
that we should try to explain and understand what it might be. If atheism means
that you're categorically denying God's existence, I wouldn’t go that far. The
problem with fundamentalists is that they generally believe that God exists and
what his wish is. I would like to say I’m a "free thinker", a better word than
both agnostic and atheist. Maybe it should be reintroduced in our modern
vocabulary.
Christer:
Which questions in today's society do you think are the most important
when it comes to religion, view of life and politics and where is the
dividing-line between freedom of religion and society's principles concerning
freedom of speech and human rights?
Björn:
I'm so incredibly tired of giving respect to a lot of delusions and crazy
ideas just because they are regarded as religions. The private faith shall of
course be respected, but it can’t be allowed to influence society or other
people. Where do you draw the line between superstition and religion? If you
bear in mind that we are living on a small planet in a solar system at the edge
of a small galaxy at the edge of the universe, it might be a slight exaggeration
to state: We have the answer! This is how matters stand. For us, God has
revealed himself. And then gradually write down the story of how the world was
created etc. And all religions claim to be the correct and genuine one. It’s
just too much for me.
I think it's important that you should be able to criticise and analyse
religions, the same way that you can criticise opinions and values. Religious
people must be able to cope with that!
The UN declaration on human rights must always be first in line before religion
or other cultural habits, in case of any conflict between them. It seems to me
that this isn’t explicitly stated by our politicians today. Some values must be
universal, like human rights and the equal worth of every human being. I believe
that politicians in Sweden are too cautious of emphasising this, probably out of
fear of being regarded as discriminative towards non-democratic cultures.
Cultural variety is always worth striving for, but must never precede the
declaration of human rights. There are brave representatives of other cultures
and religions around the world, who takes active part in fighting for human
rights, for instance Ayaan Hirsi Ali from Somalia, who fled to the Netherlands.
She wrote the book "Demand your Right!" about the repression of Muslim women.
Those kind of spokesmen and women from the Muslim world should be taken better
care of in the political debate today. She is saying clearly that most
politicians are beating about the bush when they're approaching these questions
because they are so afraid of being politically incorrect.
I think that it is mostly western and left-leaning liberals who take up that
attitude. I consider myself being a social liberal, but on this subject even the
Swedish liberals are too careful and scared. Hirsi Ali means, “to avoid telling
your opinion” is the worst thing you could do to women in the Muslim world. I
also think it’s disrespectful to the Arab culture, implying "they are Arabs, you
can't discuss human rights with them". It’s an act of discrimination against the
Arabs. Of course we should have the same dialog with Muslims about human rights,
as we have with others. And also a lot of Muslims are no more religious then the
average Swede. For them it’s natural that human rights come first.
Christer:
Yes there are intellectual circles of Muslims who are very modern and
radical. I spoke recently with Jan Henningsson who is the leader of the Swedish
institute in Alexandria in Egypt. He speaks Arab fluently and is a teacher at
the university there. He told me that there are intellectual Muslims who demand
total equality for woman and equal rights of opportunity for homosexuals, things
we don’t normally associate with Islam. So apparently, there are internal
progressive processes within the Muslim theology.
Björn:
Yes that’s exactly what I mean. This should be emphasised more in the
Swedish debate. Instead Muslims are regarded as incapable of having modern
viewpoints at all, which is of course, wrong. But obviously these Muslim
intellectuals can’t be literal interpreters of the Koran.
Christer:
Could you tell me about your intellectual process in reference to your
own view of life? When did you start reflecting on these things, was your
opinion of those questions the same during your young days? How did your current
opinion grow?
Björn:
I had a short flirtation with religion in my youth, when I studied the
Bible. When I was about fifteen I read Dan Andersson's novel "David Ramm's
Heritage", about a young man, David, who was pondering over the existential and
religious questions. When I read that novel, I thought I would also like to be a
brooder and severe. But it was merely a pose. The school and the music started
to take over my life and I didn’t have time trying to be severe and pondering!
I believe I didn’t really start thinking about religion until fifteen years ago.
I got interested in why religion existed and why human beings were in such need
of it. I started to wonder about the religious questions which started being
asked such a long time ago. Who were the storytellers and why did they tell?
Perhaps in order to achieve power and influence, it must have been a very good
way of achieving that if you didn’t have soldiers and armies at your disposal.
Christer:
You wrote the musical "Kristina" together with Benny Andersson about
Kristina and Karl Oskar - both strong religious believers. How did you like
working with these religious characters?
Björn:
When I was working with the lyrics, I tried to put myself in Kristina’s
position, to find out how, she was thinking. She was a sincere believer and
faith for her was what gave her hope to survive in a very hard world. I really
could understand why Kristina and the other immigrants held on to their faith
whatever the cost. They were so vulnerable out there in the wilderness and
worked so hard to survive. But when Kristina loses her child, even she starts to
doubt.
I put that feeling into words in the song "Du måste finnas!" (“You must exist!”)
when Kristina talks directly to God and says "You must exist, without you I'm
just a remnant on a dark and stormy sea". I understand that they needed their
faith in those days, to at least have some hope in times of despair. For that
kind of religiosity I have a deep respect. But Karl Oskar was no believer Maybe
he is Moberg's alter ego the old atheist. I’m not a believer myself.
Christer:
You have been active for a long time in show business, both in Sweden
and internationally. Sometimes one gets the impression that this business is
very involved in the NewAge movement. Some Hollywood stars are scientologists
and Madonna is involved with Cabbalism etc. Is it like that and if so why?
Björn:
People I meet in this line of business in Sweden don’t think I'm more
strange then anyone else. But I do believe that many artists are
'trend-sensitive' and travel a path that they believe can benefit their career.
Many of those who express political views or flirt with the NewAge culture maybe
don't share those views. But I can't say that I have noticed this very often
over the years. Maybe I haven't met the right people.
Christer:
In the Swedish translation of the musical "Mamma Mia" one can trace
your outlook on life. I'm thinking of the song "Thank You For The Music"
translated to Swedish as "Tack för alla sånger". You obviously dissociate
yourself from religion in the lyrics (The Swedish lyrics presented here in a
direct translation back to English):
"…thanks for all the songs, words and tunes, who needs religion? We can do
without that, but imagine if music didn’t exist, not anywhere. Everybody needs a
song and a dance…"
Did you have a deliberate intention with those words?
Björn:
I thought we could do like John Lennon did in "Imagine" and sneak in a
statement. He writes "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do, nothing
to kill or die for, no religion too."
It is sung in churches and nobody objects to the wish for a "world without
religion". I wrote the Swedish version of "Thank You For The Music" with Niklas
Strömstedt and we were both prepared for the fact that it would cause reactions.
But not one single complaint has been made! Not one single letter of complaint!
I'm actually quite surprised by it, since over 500,000 people have seen the
show. When I was working with "Kristina", I received loads of letters from
people who wanted me to make speeches in churches, because everyone believed
that I was religious. But I refused.
I don’t think it would have been appreciated that a "free thinker" speaks in the
church! But I love churches. I think that they are incredibly beautiful
buildings and I enjoy the atmosphere and the tranquillity. But that’s not a
religious feeling.. By the way I have to tell you a funny episode. When I and
Agnetha (Fältskog) were getting married, we found a beautiful castle where we
would like to give the party. We got hooked on this castle, and there was a
church connected to the castle that we thought was so beautiful, that we decided
to get married in the church, mostly for tradition.
Neither of us is religious. When I spoke to the Vicar the first time he asked me
what my occupation is, I answered "I'm an artist" but he probably didn’t hear me
correctly, because he looked terrified and cried "Atheist?!" He didn’t know how
right he was.
Christer:
A lot of people believe in different pseudoscientific treatments and
prescriptions, like healing. I can sometimes experience a moral dilemma, when it
comes to how strongly you should reject these things. If a good friend is
incurably sick, and believes this would help, do you really have the right to
take away his hope, through arguing against treatment methods that are
unconventional? At the same time it is deeply immoral of some charlatans to take
advantage of desperate people.
Björn:
I know exactly what you mean. I have a good friend whose wife is dying of
lung cancer. He tried all kinds of alternative treatments, although he himself
didn’t believe in them. But he thought he had nothing to loose. It’s a difficult
moral question, with no obvious answers I think. It's easier if someone believes
so strongly in pseudoscientific treatments and prefers to choose that instead of
medical treatment. Then you have put your foot down. I have recently read the
book "Science and Delusion" about pseudoscience and other delusions. Isn’t it
strange that people can believe in so many weird things!
Christer:
Exactly. That’s why Swedish Humanist Association have offered a prize
of 100,000 kronor which goes to those who can show any paranormal ability under
scientifically controlled conditions. I don’t expect to be running the risk of
handing out the prize money.
Björn:
That’s excellent! I think there should be a TV show made about it as pure
consumer guidance. I don’t understand how society and the scientists can accept
so much quackery and cheating in our society. We should have more explicit laws
in this area. Our scientists who are aware of this problem should debate more
often in the media. The problem is that the media in some way make a profit on
these things. Horoscopes, and TV shows about the spiritual world etc. Maybe they
don’t want it to be revealed.
Christer:
How do you look at the political development in the US in the light of
President Bush's distinct religious beliefs? Do you think Sweden might become
more religious?
Björn:
Yes it’s very distressing. US should have been our allies in the fight
for secularisation! The struggle against terrorism is weakened if it's regarded
as a battle between Islamic and Christian fundamentalists. But at the same time
I don’t think the American people are as religious as they seem. When they
answer in various surveys that they believe in God, it makes me wonder if it’s
simply a routine answer. The church in America is also very much a social
constitution. Let’s hope that a Democrat will win the election after Bush,
perhaps Hillary Clinton?
Christer:
What’s your opinion about Jesus and the mythology surrounding him?
Björn:
The story of Jesus is very fascinating. It still has such a tremendous
power, even after 2,000 years! We don’t really know if he existed as a
historical figure. It’s hard to understand that people can imagine Jesus as a
personal friend, whom they can turn to in times of trouble. What an incredibly
powerful myth that is! I doubt that Jesus existed as a human being, even if I
don’t think it matters in the least to a believer today. A lot of people who
were around at the same time as Jesus are well documented by the historians of
the time, but there are only one or two references to Jesus.
Christer:
You who write stories and work as a dramaturge, could you tell me what
kind of dramatic qualities in the story of Jesus has led to such an enormous
impact?
Björn:
The whole story of the Virgin Mary and the three wise men, Jesus' birth
and later the return to Jerusalem, though he knew what was in store for him, is
a narrative technique of pure genius. Not to mention all the miracles, the cruel
crucifixion - where Jesus himself must drag the cross to his own execution and
later on the resurrection. Everyone loves these stories. His arrival in
Jerusalem must have been like the Beatles' arrival in New York, no contemporary
historians have documented that as far as I know.
Christer:
So it was a smart move by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice to write
the musical "Jesus Christ Superstar" wasn't it? Half the work was already done
so to speak?
Björn:
Yes, it was a fantastic success. It was even moderately blasphemous. Tim
Rice told me that they had to tackle many problems in the US, where many people
protested against the way they described Jesus. Herod is portrayed as a star and
the image of Judas wasn’t approved of either. But above all you were not allowed
to present a picture of Jesus the way they did.
Christer:
Thanks for this conversation!
Björn:
Thank you!
Interview by Christer Sturmark. Translation to English by Marika Granerus and
Jimmy Whitefield with additional editing c/o icethesite.com.
From the Swedish magazine “Humanisten”, Issue No. 4, December 2005
